Creating & Killing Chaos After the Battle with Marine Veteran & Author Matt Stack

Our guest today is a Marine Corps Veteran that has been featured on “About Face Radio,” Urban Valor, and Course of Action Podcast. He’s operates an adventure gear rental business with his wife called GOBE and is also an author of a book that helps the Veteran community through recovery through spirituality.

I’m excited to learn more about today’s guest, so let’s welcome Matt Stack to The Morning Formation Podcast.

Buy Killing Chaos Book on Amazon: https://a.co/d/fP0qciD

Join Matt on IG: https://www.instagram.com/matt_stack/

Join Matt win LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-stack-9082809/

Check Out the GOBE app: https://gobe.app/

Transcript

KP: 0:33

In the military, you're given a uniform and instructed on how to do things and when to do them. But what happens when the cadence fades and you're no longer wearing that uniform? I'm Kp and I started this podcast to fill that silence with direction and to provide overall support for my beloved military family. Welcome to the Morning formation. This episode is powered by act now education, go to www.actnoweducation.com For free, comprehensive educational resources and opportunities for active duty, veterans, military spouses, and children.

Matt Stack: 1:17

I think guys, there's a combination of guys want to think about well, listen, you don't know what I've been through. And that's true. We don't or you don't know we've what I've experienced. That's true. We don't, but the way you feel, I guarantee matches up if you were to pull 100 vets in a room, and we talked about what we talked about on this show today. I would bet 90% of them would all would all be like Yeah.

KP: 1:54

Warriors fall in, it's time for formation. Our guest today is a Marine Corps veteran that has been featured on about face radio, urban valor, and course of action podcast. He operates an adventure gear rental business with his wife, and is also an author of a book that helps veteran the veteran community recover through spirituality after service. And I'm excited to learn more about today's guest. So I'd like to welcome Matt stack to the morning formation podcast. Thank you for joining us today, sir.

Matt Stack: 2:25

Thanks, man. Thanks. Good. Glad to be on here. Thanks for having me. And I'm excited man.

KP: 2:31

How's the grind going this week for you?

Matt Stack: 2:33

Oh, it's good man. You'll notice the graphic grind is good. This is my beautiful office I designed this awesome office in my house but we we gave birth to twin babies and this twin babies took over everything so with our four little kids running around the house, which they may bust in any minute this is become my my home office. So the grind is good working, life, marriage, business. I my capacitie has grown way beyond what I thought I could do. So yeah, it's good man.

KP: 3:04

Now the business that you operate the outdoor adventure rental business, it's called Gobe.

Matt Stack: 3:09

Yep. It's called Gobie. Quick lowdown on that was back in 2020. My wife and I were trying to figure out where to kind of build something of our own, you know, and my wife was like, you know, we had started doing some research on where trends were going where people were, you know, focusing their areas and money. And that was around the time you couldn't even find a mountain bike. You couldn't find this outdoor gear because lockdowns people were just scooping up stuff. And my wife was like, Well, why don't we just buy a whole bunch of gear and rent it out to people? And then that's where the idea hit me because I've always been fascinated by these community fueled businesses. So you get these Airbnbs that don't own real estate, but they're the biggest real estate company and Facebook's not producing media, but they're the biggest media entity out there. So we design we had the idea right then to make Gobe which was just a way for people to rent out their gear to one another because I've rented snowboards before I've gotten pieces of crap. And you know, all that. So I realized, what if I just built like the platform, let people be able to rent the gear that's in their garage, make money, listing out their bikes, or their gear, whatever, and then built up the app. So we built it, launched it, and some way more stressful than I thought it was gonna be. But it's fun, man. But yeah, Gobe technically launched on the seventh. And so it's been fun.

KP: 4:28

But yeah, there are no, there are no shortcuts, man. I mean, a lot of times people even think that starting a podcast is going to be so easy. And it's just, there's nothing involved except recording and just publishing. But I could see where being an adventure gear rental company, we could be very stressful at times where you're having to chase people down for stuff and stuff comes back damaged and everything else but you saw an opportunity and you got the means to create it. So that's to be highly applauded. And, you know, I understand that you recently wrote a book called Killing chaos. And I want to ask you about, I guess one of the main functionalities of that book when it comes to chaos in general, you know, military and first responders typically trained to function under fire and in chaos. So would you mind telling us about your own Marine Corps experiences for being trained in chaos and, and how that state of mine affected your own personal life? When you transitioned out of the Marine Corps?

Matt Stack: 5:32

Dude good question, man, yeah, the Marine Corps is if anyone knows that they've seen videos of you know, the bus pulling up at nighttime and a drill instructor getting on the bus and then just the that's when the birth of chaos is happens right there. Like the moment chaos is birthed is when we're all running on the yellow footprints, you can't even think straight. You're just yelled, you're just yelled at constantly. And something that I found out was it's such a purposeful means for the training because it accustoms men and women to war and accustomed them to not be complacent. And so even if even if there was a regular routine that had developed in boot camp that we then could lean on as like a comfort or security, they would pull it right out from underneath you and change things up. And they did it on purpose. So you were constantly like, finally, I think one time we had our entire squad Bay clean. Alright, we're gonna do this special field day where we move every single bunk against the wall, and everyone's gonna scrub the floor, and we're gonna dump all your stuff out on the floor. Like it was just like that level. We're like, why? But I realized later, like, Okay, so that's if we go to war, and people around you are dying left and right, that you can get the job done, you can still function. So here's where killing chaos came in. I become super passionate about this, because for many years after I got out, I had a really hard time transitioning, I felt like everybody was better at me, than everything, at everything. Better me and relationships better than me at jobs felt like I couldn't hold down a job. I couldn't sit still in a room. Always wanting to blow my paycheck, the moment it would come in like it was constant. But it was subtle. Like I didn't think about these things. I just did them. And it wasn't until I was reading a book. So long to short, I got involved in a church that became my community became a born again, Christian. And I had a great church, great group of people. And they were great. They had great relationships, great careers, very successful. And I was like, Man, I don't get it. What is wrong with me? Like, everyone's like, oh, there's, you know, so I just was like, trying to navigate that. And the time I was interning, and I read a book called Ordering your Private World, which I highly recommended people. And there was a sentence in that book that said, All of men's miseries derived from him not being able to sit in a quiet room, alone. And I remember just getting wrecked by that, like, thinking that there's it was just me and how I'm wired. Because when guys get out, they start going, Ah, the civilians are fake. Oh, I missed the Brotherhood. You know, we start kind of going out. Like, I don't mean it's not that bad. Like, oh, you know, I'll kind of go back and everyone everyone does it. But I had a buddy of mine, I was working at a civilian job with and I always tell the story about him because he was just this marine vet. Just this big old Viking of a man. Big old dude crude as can be, but would give you the, you know, the shirt off his back. And he was ready to he was dating this girl and they were engaged. And she was a great girl. Like, great relationship, everything. And then suddenly he he confesses to me one day at lunch that he's thinking of leaving her to get back with his ex. And his ex was crazy as a loon. But the sex was great. And he was going that. And by this time, I'm like, Christian, so I can obviously navigate that, you know, those conversations and where our perspective and but I remember like getting pissed and like cussing at him and like, being like, bro, what how do you Why would you leave, like the best thing that's happened to you to go after her? There's a there's a line in the movie Family Man, if you've ever seen it, where Nicolas Cage is about do the same thing. He's got the great wife at home, and he's about to go for the, you know, the neighbor. And he's like, Hey, don't ruin his neighbors, like don't ruin the greatest thing to happen you just because you're a little unsure about yourself. And these were things that were just kind of constantly there. And then I felt like God really opened up this door for me of understanding. Right then what he was going through because I realized I was projecting my anger to him, was me projecting all this stuff that I was going through. And that was when the idea of this chaos element started coming into play. So what happened is for about two years, when I would meet a veteran, I became passionate about telling them like, Hey, man, I don't know if you feel this way. But when I got out of the Marine Corps, I constantly feel like destroying everything because here, to summarize it. The military trains us to operate in that chaos. Fort prepares for war. And it becomes such a part of our daily life that we do it every day. And we wear it as a badge of honor like oh man, like when things go wrong. Like what is the unit? Do we just laugh? Like we laugh like oh yeah, man, of course. This is how it is like and then the problem is where it disconnects is when guys get out when girls get out. They don't realize it but they will subconsciously sabotage their lives. To get back to it, then they don't know it. So they just get out and think that that's how they're wired. So I started sharing this one by one with veterans to see Man, am I the only one? And one, one after one. I mean, like, 99% of the time, I would see a person's face just drop, like I just peeked into their life. And I started sharing this with them until I was at a conference in the springs. And if I'm going too long, let me know because I get super passionate on this. But I was at a conference here in the springs before I lived here, and I meet this old master sergeant and his wife, and I start telling him this, he was old Marine, and I was like, hey man. I don't know if this was like this for you. This is how it was for me. And his wife just starts bawling. I mean, like, immediately, just starts crying in front of us. And they both like just have deer in the headlights, and she looks at me, she goes, he's been doing that for 25 years after he got out. So here guys are getting out and wrecking their lives. And they can't make the connection, that their training is constantly kicking back into gear. Because the moment you come into a peaceful environment, a quiet home, like a loving place, something in you starts to freak out. You're like, something's wrong. Like, this is not how it should be. And we're trained to think like, hey, if things are too calm, they're too quiet. That's not good. That's not healthy. So guys will wreck it. But they don't realize they're wrecking it, they just think oh, this is how I am. No, it's not. That's not how you are. And your training is constantly overriding your life, because you can have a great marriage, you can have a great life, you can have a peaceful life. And that's become my mission. But then that guy wrecked me when he goes, Hey, man, what you said to me was a revelation. But it's not enough like now what do I do? And I was like, dang you're, right? I used to think just telling the guys the trigger was enough, but it's not. And so that's where killing chaos, the idea of it was birthed. So super long answer your question, but I become really passionate about it.

KP: 12:32

I'm gonna have to end this interview because you're really hitting home for me. No.

Matt Stack: 12:37

That was like, is it the connection to the connection guy?

KP: 12:39

No, honestly, man. Yeah, what you're talking about, I've heard over and over again. And for me, that chaos started. When I was a child, it started from child childhood. And I guess I kind of learned on my own, how to be resilient. And that, that what you're talking about right there, magnified when I went into the military, and it continued on when I got out. And when I got out. And things became like you said peaceful, I wasn't content, like I wanted to start chaos again. And I got into Brazilian jujitsu pretty heavily. Once I got out of the military, I really think I danced in the chaos because of being on the mats. And I trained so hard, because I loved being there. But it's a tight, same time, it took a huge toll on my relationships, you know, and I ended up getting getting a divorce. And, you know, it's something that I had to try to understand how to be at peace with myself, and how to not create that chaos. So would you also say that, you know, what, or would you also tie this state of resiliency training to folks who grow up through child a childhood, and they end up mentally surviving and physically surviving, obviously, in a domestically violent situation, you know, prior to even being in the military.

Matt Stack: 14:11

One 1,000% fact I was having a conversation with the vet yesterday, who I got connected to, because I didn't know someone had referred my book to him. And him and I connected and we've talked quite a bit. And he opened up to me about his childhood trauma, and how his he joined the military as a means to kind of hone that and use it, but now it's exponentially manifested. And so now that his relationship got wrecked in his life, now, he's like navigating this world of dealing with childhood trauma, not to mention the military trauma, and now you're tossed into a peaceful environment. Like, on one hand, I'm super pissed at the military for it, like, how can you guys like how do you not understand that guys are like killing themselves because of the you can't , you can't, you can't just shut the valve off, like, and then expect guys to be like, Cool. I'll drive my kid every day at 8am to school and sit at home and work. It doesn't work like that. And so, but on one hand, that the military is bred for one purpose, and that's war, so I can't I can't be too mad. It's like that's the whole purpose. But at the same time when guys get out and you're not there to show them how to navigate, that's where I think is drastically different. So I thinks of what you said 100% Like the trauma manifests itself. So here's where the real core of killing chaos came in is when I became a born again, Christian. There now don't get me wrong that that term has a whole big spectrum to it because I grew up Catholic bro. And that didn't do jack for me. And I have my whole, like, I could go on a rant for an hour just on my problems with the Catholic Church. But I was a part of a church that was big into the Holy Spirit that was big into miracles. So like, I remember going to a church, witnessing my first like real miracle, seeing like a real exorcism take place, seeing like stuff, where I'm like, Oh, you walk away, like the next day you're like, Is this for real? Like? Is this just not like a thing that people talk about? Like, because it's one thing like, I would just go to Catholic church every week, we check the box and go home and, you know, do a regular life. But now it's like, Wait, this is a real thing. And that means there's actual power and authority there. So where this whole idea of killing chaos was was how to get guys to navigate these realms of trauma, from a spiritual perspective, and how to have dominion over them how to cancel these things, how for them to how to spiritually remove their power, because like, literally no kidding, like I was on Instagram. I don't know, like an hour ago. And I one of the videos that pulled up was the video of Chris Kyle was from Bradley Cooper playing Chris Kyle, where he's where he's lined up on the kid who picks up the RPG and he's like, you can see his face like navigating it. Like that's a real life scenario, that people navigate it. A buddy of mine have the hardest time seeing a kid die over over and Afghanistan, took him years. But we met in the church and he was able to navigate that. So my whole point that I'm circling to is that, let's say a guy navigates childhood trauma. Let's say they navigate military trauma, all these things, when they get out. The VA is trying to provide mental health, they're trying to provide emotional help, financial help all these things. But there's a very real spiritual door that's been opened. And now a person is tormented, or tormented in their thoughts, they're tormented it in their minds, and their sleep, they lose sleep. And now this thing has a hold over them, and a control. So where the idea of where we're coming from a Christian perspective is how to navigate that trauma, really kill it, really overcome it to where now you can have peace. In every situation. When my dad died seven years ago, I was able to have the greatest peace in my life and navigate that, because of my understanding of God, and my authority in Christ and how I take authority over those things. So I'll go I'll go, I have to stop, because I'll just get too passionate about and keep going off on it. But yes, to answer your question, and what it definitely manifests exponentially when a person gets out. Yeah, so deep stuff.

KP: 18:24

Very deep stuff, no doubt about it. And you know, I'm not a super religious person myself, you know, I do consider myself a Christian. And I believe that religion is really important. When it when it comes to help finding your way when you're lost in your own journey, you know, whatever religion that might be. And I just want to ask you, specifically, do you have a difficult time relating to combat veterans versus veterans that only served in garrison? And is there a difference between, I guess, helping to guide those different types of veterans that have had those different types of experiences? Or is it very similar in a sense of like, well, a person that's been to combat be able to relate to your book versus a person that hasn't been combat? Will they both be able to relate to your book?

Matt Stack: 19:18

Awesome question. First part of that, yes, I 100% always battle with like the man, well, I didn't go to combat. So who am I to talk to these guys. And part of me is always like, oh, man, I wish I had seen combat. And then immediately the other part of me is like, I'm thankful that I didn't. So there's always both sides that I war with. But what I found is, when you're talking about a spiritual perspective of this, it doesn't matter if a person is combat related and non combat related, and I think a trap because non combat veterans are killing themselves too, as well as combat veterans. So the trap that people can fall into, is to, it's like the guy who lost one leg, looking at the guy who lost two. It's like, is the guy who lost one leg now, should he be more grateful than the guy who had like, has two? And then the guy who only lost a finger? Should he be more grateful? Like, you end up with this kind of this weird scale where you're navigating. And then should the non combat veteran who was sexually molested as a child but didn't see combat? But now it's exponentially like, we fall into this weird trap where you're like, No,

KP: 20:25

it's like an equation, right? Like, yeah, I had one plus two plus and it's not like that.

Matt Stack: 20:29

It's Not like that. And so every person is different. How we navigate stuff is different how, how people have navigated divorce, how they navigated being an only child like. So what I'm finding is i, because of the authority that God has given me and how I've been able to been trained and shown how to navigate people, and I'm dealing with the spiritual perspective of how to navigate that I feel equipped to do so. Speaking of next Wednesday, we're launching our combat recovery course and I'll be leading it but I'm walking into there knowing I'm staying in my lane and my lane is listen, there's a spiritual battle going on there is a God there is a devil, I can show you how to accept Jesus how to take authority, like perfect example I gave to someone that So real quick, I'll share this my buddy was is a cop he got out of the Marine Corps became a cop, we became really good friends. And he was like, head of our security team everything and he was navigating some heavy stuff from overseas. But he didn't, he had come from a different Christian perspective of like, God is on the throne. And everything happens for a reason and all that, all that bullshit. Like, forgive me, like, like all that stuff where you're like, okay, like, Yeah, but still kids are still getting kidnapped. And, you know, stuff is horrible stuff is still happening. So you can't say that. God is in charge of everything. Because he's notlike there's still freewill., So anyways, we're at this restaurant. And I was like, Here, man was like, here's how if you have to understand the authority in the spiritual realm, I was like, let's say a person walked into this restaurant right now and said, Everybody put down your forks right now. Stand up and get outside. Everybody would look at him. Like, who are you. But if he was wearing the the uniform of police of a police officer, and he walked in, he said, Hey, everyone, my name is Sergeant stack with San Diego police department killer Springfield, whoever held up the badge and said, I need you all to stand up right now, immediately leave this restaurant, everybody would do it. Because they can recognize the authority that that person carries. And they believe him. And it's the same thing in the spiritual realm. When I become a Christian, when I've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, which I go through in my book, which some Christian denominations are not down with. But that's how I navigated everything was from a place of authority of understanding now that I've walked into a kingdom, I'm no longer like this little peasant ant, looking at God, like, oh, Lord, please, you know, may I just like, No, now I may son, it says that I can come boldly before the throne of grace, just as someone had a great quote, one time, they said, there's only one person in the kingdom, who has the balls to wake up a king in the middle of the night and ask him for a drink of water. And it's his son. And that is who we are in. So that is the perspective that I'm trying to bring to these men and women of understanding who you are. Like, you're a son and a daughter of the king. Like, you don't have to listen to that. And I told these guys that are, we're having the same debate one time at a restaurant. And I told him, I was like, you don't get it. I said, when I walk out of this restaurant, everything is subject to me on a spiritual level, because of who I am, and who I am. And who am I understanding of who I am. So my kids have had night terrors, I could tell you demonic things that have happened in our house, and how literally praying those things off have left. I mean, I could literally sit here for hours, bro. Going over stuff that that's happened, where I'm like, Dude, this is for real. So to answer your question would bring it all back? Yes, combat non combat won't matter. When they read the book. They're all gonna go through it. And I don't even care about the book the books awesome, but it's just understanding who they are. Right? Yeah, again, it's a deep levels, man. Don't get me wrong. I'll go down on crazy tangents. So just don't mind

KP: 24:19

me. That's okay. It's okay. Um, I've been doing this for like, almost two years. So I was just talking to someone earlier today about making sure that you ask very specific questions when you're doing podcasting, because I'm the same way dude, I will, I will go down the rabbit hole like I have ABB really bad. And I will meet you and I will be talking about frickin outdoor gear here in a minute if I don't stay on task. So yeah, I know thyself. But don't worry about it. You're going into great detail. I really appreciate it. But going back to what you said, Man, whenever somebody tells me like, oh, I served in the military, but I never got a chance to go to combat I wish I had. It really bothers me because I'm thinking why like, why do you wish you had like, that doesn't define you as a person at all. And I you know, unless you're like Mike Glover who gets on Joe Rogan and says, When I was a child I wanted to go to combat looking forward to it kick ass like, yeah, man. Like that's, I don't that's not me. Like I did not. I did not desire to go. What did it was it something that I knew I was gonna have to do? Yes, but it's it's something that I was like, you know, a a warmonger No. And in reality, those folks that never go like you're not missing out on anything, man, like, it doesn't define you at all. So I was just wondering about that, because we, we went through sort of a period of like, 20 years, man, we're like, you know, to see a combat patch or to see a combat ribbon was very common. And now we've kind of come out of that now. And we're at a different place. But in relation to your book, killing chaos, you know, we've kind of talked about and underlined it here and there. But would you mind talking to us? About, I guess, how it can help? Yeah, the military or the first responder community? Specifically? How can we get them to pick up this book and open it up and read the first few chapters just to get things rolling?

Matt Stack: 26:17

Yeah, good question, man. And I agree with you on the combat thing. 100%. When it comes to Yeah, the books. So the whole idea behind the book was, and I've never written a book before, I didn't even have desire, like I, when I got done with work and doing all the stuff, I'd rather just when the kids go to bed, sit down and play some PlayStation, and you know, chill out. But I was like, Alright, I guess have to write this write this book. I don't know how to do it, but I'll do it. But I was the whole idea that I was trying to mimic, I guess, if you will, is I realized that everyone in the military, no matter what branch we're in follows the same path of training. So we all have some level of bootcamp or basic training, we all have some level of any kind of field elements that will be added, depending upon our job, or MOS, we go on to our schooling, we go into our advanced schooling from there, it's the duty stations or fleet, what they call and then there are different billets you can do from there, and then there's an honorable discharge. So there's this this flow that every single military person can relate to, regardless of what they did. So what I did was mimicked how it should be with a person's walk with God, and matched it up to the adjoining portion of their military training. So I basically wrote back out the map of like, Hey, if you're new to God, this is where you should start. This is where your basic training is, hey, from there, this is what you're going to want to navigate to this is what field training looks like for person getting out. So you can navigate that. This is what your duty station your billets going to look like and go from there. And so we just kind of walk a person step by step like, Hey, I know you're used to basic, and then all those next steps after this is what you're going to do. And this is how you navigate. And we've been really, I've been really blessed man, I, I found out that there was a pastor here in the springs, who started using my book as a mandatory read for his veterans going through a combat recovery course. And I was like, that might be the greatest honor of my life like, and that he's become a friend. And it's been awesome to see because I've said this before, and I don't like saying it. But I feel like it's good as I think I used to get mad at Veterans when I would first get out. I think I would always be like, Hey, why can you just figure this out? Why can you? Why are you not? Why is it so hard for you to just navigate life and blah, blah, blah. And it was the same as before, I was just always projecting my own junk. But now man, like I feel like I'm crying every week, like I was calling all the guys go into my course. Coming up next week hearing their stories, what they went through. And man, it was like, I'm like, I feel like the longer I walk with God, the softer I'm becoming like, it's like, every day every day, I'm constantly looking at situations like hey, is Matt in the marine gonna respond? Or is Matt, the man a gardener and so on. But it's like when it comes to veterans now, it's like, my heart is just like, crying left and right, because I realized, man, these guys are just alone. They don't know. And one of the key elements. So there's there's three things essentially we're navigating, you got killing chaos, but really we're dealing in those course of what, something called a soul wound. A soul wound is can be like a type of trauma. And they have different ones for regular not regular trauma, but outside of a military world trauma, and then there's first responder, but then also you've got the chaos element. And then really what's missing for these guys is community, putting them back into a place with people that they respect. Like because if you tell if you tell most guys like hey man, you want to come to like a men's group or you want to come to church you want to come and sing? Like everyone has a picture of like, you know, like Ned Flanders in their mind like now bro I'm good. Like, like, give me the guy like on the mats every week who can submit everyone in the entire room, but has an awesome marriage. And you know, as a warrior, and as a man that you respect and as a as a man after God's own heart like that's the men that when guys get out they look at and they go, alright, that guy I'd follow that guy I'd be in community with. And I think the church has changed in the last 20 years like the church you and I went to when we were younger. No. The one of the, the two men who wrecked me as I was navigating this world. One of them was a 20 year Navy SEAL. The other one was one of the most successful practices in San Diego. And they both were amazing men, and I remember him, they both were just challenging me, like, Dude, you're not here, how you speak about yourself and everything. And they, they got me into another book that wrecked me. And so it's just being around good men. And that's I think what's missing, they need a brotherhood, a sisterhood, whatever you want to call it. They need community when they get out a real one.

KP: 31:08

Yeah, I agree with you. 100% when it comes to that community, and I always tell people that at least this is what I think that when the World War Two veterans came back from their long siege overseas, it was much easier to connect with that community. Because there was so many people involved in that. Your neighbors were there, your your boss was there, everyone was there. So everyone had, I came back from Iraq. And right off the bat, I literally had people telling me what was happening over there while they were watching it on CNN or Fox News. And it really, it really irritated me and pissed me off. Because I'm thinking to myself, though, I just spent a year in my life over there, I was on boots on the ground dealing with all kinds of shit. And here I have a civilian sitting in front of me telling me how, or what's going on over there in the war right now. So that community that you're talking about, and having to having folks that also identify with you has the the the numbers have have lessened over the years, I mean, it's like less than what 6% ever serve in the military. And then it's an even smaller percentage that I actually go to war, or have been to war before I experienced it. So, you know, it's it's very difficult to find folks that are, I guess, able to speak my language are able to understand where I'm coming from sometimes. And I agree with you 100% on that and talking about leadership, you know, I in in some aspect to what we're talking about here. I really think that folks need to take accountability of themselves, especially once they get out of the military. I know for me, I struggled for years trying to figure out, you know, why did I like dancing in the chaos so much and, you know, in my, my relationship, but prior to that, I struggled so much to where I was seeing different counselors on my own. I avoided the VA, I stayed away from the VA because the VA has such a bad name to it. I did not want to be associated with being a crazy veteran. But I was but I was a crazy veteran. And it kind of hit home when the divorce was final. And my ex told me she said, she said I'll never get into another relationship with a military person again. And I thought I was a little offended by that. I was like, we know what Screw you, you know, but and it made me think like, you know, should I go to the VA, and I finally did go to the VA. And I got the help that I needed to get, I finally was able to connect with a good counselor that I could talk to, and get the help that I needed. But how do you feel about the VA and with this with the whole killing chaos and the whole aspect of of understanding that we recreate that chaos after service?

Matt Stack: 34:08

Yeah man , that's a good question. On one hand. Like I remember when the Shinseki scandal happened years back, and it was like I remember trying to get appointments at the San Diego VA took forever. And then after that scandal and down it was like, man, they were calling me to make appointments. And it was like I want and I was like good. Some stuff is getting fixed here. But on the other hand, it's a nightmare. And I think I mean, the government runs anything. It's a nightmare. But I think I like I reached out to the mental health team at the VA. Like because whatever reason you know, they don't you don't get much response in just navigating this, even some other great entities because because I'm bringing this from a spiritual perspective. That to me is the key. That's the missing link. That is the thing that helps guys navigate this. Like there's great things out there but until you can navigate this from a spiritual perspective, it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. You, there are humongous doors that have been opened. And I'm promising you there's there's only one way to close them. And I've seen it again and again. And so for me the VA on some aspects, I think is improved but on others they suck like I'm like so I mean I feel torn to be honest with you. I still I still use the VA still talk with them like I still go to my appointments. So I think it's a love hate. There was a video that I just saw, I don't even know where it came from it was from a movie of some young kid walking up to a desk. And he said he wants to kill himself. And the girls like, okay, fill out this form. She hands him a form. And I sent it to one of my buddies who runs a podcast, and he was like, bro, that is the VA. And I was like, I know, like, I had a real quick story. I had a, my mother in law met this guy recently, a few weeks back at like the chiropractor. And he, she starts telling him, finds out that he's a vet wants to write a book, she's Oh, my gosh, my son in law wrote a book, blah, blah, blah. And so they give me my somehow I get in touch this guy. She gives him my number he calls me. I was like, Cool, no problem, man. Like, absolutely, I'll help you. And then I met up for him for lunch. Like I went to lunch with them. And I had no idea he was like massively struggling with suicide, really going like in a dark, dark path. And man, I'm like, Man, I thought this guy was like, in a good place this and this, I had no idea. He's still struggling. And then now once he mentioned suicide, like, I'm now on the legal hook for making sure he's connected to the right person, like, immediately. So now I'm scrambling trying to get him the right place. And I remember going down a rabbit hole, because he didn't want to go down the road of the VA. He was like, no, like, do not want to go there. And I remember connecting him with someone immediately. That took like three levels deep to get to this person. And it was really annoying. And then when they finally get on the phone with him, I'm three wayed on the phone with him. Like the first question. They were like, they asked him what his pronouns were. And he was done. He was like, that was it. Like, didn't want to talk any more like, and I was like, dude, like, this is, I was just floored. And then I felt like an ass like, because now I'm trying to get him the right help. And so obviously, like, things are better now. And I was able to connect him with some other people and, but it was just like, on one hand, I think you're right. I don't think guys want to. I don't think guys want to go down that because everyone thinks they're, it's like, they picture like a stamp that's gonna go on their file, and that everyone will know, right there. Every time they call this guy struggles with suicide. But the problem is tons of guys are struggling with suicide, and it's not connected to their identity. That's the problem is guys are connecting the way that they are and the way that they operate to their personality. It's not your personality, your personality, wouldn't want to destroy your marriage, your personality, wouldn't want to just wreck everything around you. I was getting my hair cut from a dude. Not long ago, and I started talking to my start telling he found out he's a marine and like Marine infantry vet, start telling about the chaos thing, and he stops. And he goes, bro, every day, I feel like grabbing this chair and smashing the place to pieces. And I was like, It's not you, man. That is not you. Like, that is just how you've been growing. You can't spend you can't put guys in that kind of environment for years, and then not see it bleed out into a peaceful situation. Because the truth is, my wife doesn't need like my wife, the type of love that my wife needs is different than the type of love I need. And the type of love my family needs is different than the type of love I need. Like, I can't be coming downstairs and just shaking up the nest every day. And thinking that they're going to be like, sweet, no problem. Like we'll do this. Like, that has effects. But then the problem is, is when guys do it, they feel like a failure. They think there's something wrong with them. They think it's me, I'm broken, Hey man. We're all broken. But where this whole cast element is, is like, listen, there is a reason that you're operating this way. And it could be if a person was abused, now they then subsequently have to feel like they are in control at all times. So they will become an over controlling person with an A type personality. They might have been hurt by someone or abandoned by a mother. they do, they will get wrecked. Bro I was my wife and I do marriage counseling every other week. And we feel like we have a great marriage 11 years for kids. But I'm like, dude, even like two weeks ago we get done with a thing we're both crying because I'm like still dealing with like some of my junk and like helping a counselor deal with it. And even though I feel like we got a great thing like. So I think there's a deeper world and it wrecks me to see guys like have things go wrong in their life and then they walk away thinking they....Don't get me wrong, everyone's responsible. I can't just say, hey, it's not your fault. It's all this fault. Like everyone has to take responsibility for their junk. But there's a reason it gets to that point is my guess what I'm trying to say?

KP: 40:41

Yeah, no doubt man I, I grew up with a father who served in the military for 20 years, drafted in 71. And even to this day, recently, we got into a conversation on whether or not whether or not counselor counseling is bullshit. He's the kind of, he's the kind of veteran that literally went to a counselor once and walked out, like and never went back. And it's, it's tough man, because that's a whole different era in itself of time when people just thought counselors are bullshit. And psychologists are bullshit. And they just keep everything to yourself, and let it fester up. And as far as shaking the nest up that you were talking about, it's important for veterans out there to look in the mirror and recognize and realize that sometimes you may be the problem that's creating the fire. And that was certainly somebody that I was I was constantly shaking the nest, and I was constantly trying to create that chaos that I was so comfortable with being in at the time. So learning how to control that was really important for me, and I think that your book in itself, man really, really hits home. For me, and I'm sure for many veterans that are going to be listening and military spouses that are going to be listening to this podcast, specifically. And just wanted to ask you, you know, everyone's out there, talking about 22 A day. I see people out there doing push ups and whatever else like, to me, it's, I don't know, I think it's a waste of time. But it's important to talk about it, it's important to understand it, but all the other stuff that comes with it, the push ups and all that crap, like I don't play that. I don't, I think it's bullshit. But the 22 a day is a very important thing, though, in itself to understand that we're a very small percentage, but we have very high suicide rates. Do you feel that this specific thing that we're talking about here? Shaking the nest, creating chaos, being in the chaos, being comfortable in the chaos? Do you feel like that attributes a lot to that high suicide rate that we have

Matt Stack: 42:45

100%. And I'm not, I'm not, I guess you could say educated enough for certified enough if you want to say to maybe put a conclusion on it. But man Gosh, from, from what I've seen it, I think it's a that's a huge part of it. I think it's like a like, I think of it like a concoction. You get someone who's battled with abandonment, trauma, all these elements, and then you mix in military service, then you put them into civilian environments where they can't navigate emotional, the same emotional ways that other people do. And you add in all these things. And then it manifests itself in different ways. So now you have a person who's dealt with abandonment, they dealt with the trauma, they dealt with all these things, now they get out, and they don't want to make connections, because they're thinking these civilans are gonna be fake, they're not going to understand me, I don't want to connect to this person, because they're not going to understand me, well, now they're secluded, now they're isolated. Now they feel alone. And I think it's just this pattern. Like, it's like a formula that just keeps playing out. So that what you would really want to see happen is, it's like, you gotta go back to the tree, you got to go back to when guys are getting out, there has to be something in place for, you know, what I got, you know, my transition was? Was the dude who came in and showed us how to collect unemployment in two different states. That was my, that was my get out of the Marine Corps class. But hey, here's how you can actually navigate the system and collect unemployment to two places that was it. And the next thing on waiting tables, I got involved in some network marketing scheme. Dude, the head dude goes to prison. I'm like, maybe this is a scam. Maybe this is bad. Like so to answer your Yeah, I think I think it's massively attributing I have a hard time seeing guys go through the elements of like, really accepting Jesus really navigating their trauma, really being able to and there's a myth when I say navigating the trauma, there's a, I don't want to go too deep into it. But there is a way to do that like to actually do it. And I've done it and man never experienced anything like it in my life. But now those things don't have a hold over me. I now have a hold of them. I am now in control those things don't hold me. And so yeah, I think it's attributing huge

KP: 45:08

Yeah, definitely. I don't have the stats on this. But I would also venture to say that the majority of the folks that join the military, left the military, served in the military, do not come from the best home situations, including myself. You know, whether it's single parent homes, split home, domestically violent homes, you're you're joining the military to just Get away from your situation, whatever the case is, and you spend your entire childhood teenage years learning to be resilient and just toughing it out without any understanding of what you're doing, then you join the military, you add more chaos to that. And then from there, you get out. And then we talk about that 22 a day, which is a very high statistic for our small community. I would say that dancing in the chaos, if it's something that you've been doing for over 20, some years, to include your childhood. And you just stack more on top of that. And you're wondering why you're just jumping from relationship to relationship from job to job, why no one understands you. I really think that the whole concept of this book really hits a mark on why we have such a high suicide rate. And it has to do with how, understanding how to switch that chaos off, and how to be at peace with yourself. And when I honestly was contacted by you, I'm gonna be honest with you, I thought, oh, here we go. Another author another book, blah, blah, blah. Okay, let me see what this is about. When I went on to Amazon and I saw, you know, what this was about, and, you know, the, the understanding of the daily life chaos effects, you know, in that we go through in training, and then in combat, and then coming out here to civilian world. I thought, Wow, this, this looks interesting. Like, I would like to talk to this author a little bit deeper. And I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity and giving this audience an opportunity as well, to learn more about you, Matt, because, you know, the the book that you have is is definitely something that I think a lot of veterans out there who are having difficulties in their relationships outside of the service, or even while you're in service, or even our first responders out there. Yeah, this is definitely a great read. And just to give you an opportunity, man, if folks out there want to follow up with you, on you know, contact you for anything that you mentioned today, what social media platforms are you on? And where can they find your book?

Matt Stack: 47:37

I'm on Instagram, really, I'm just on Instagram, I don't have a Facebook. But man, if you're out there and you're struggling like Guys, guys, I hate calling people Man, I hate it more than anything, but I'll text them, I'll message someone. So if you, someone's out there struggling with suicide, you're going like, bro, you can message me man go on, Matt underscore stack is my Instagram. It's the only one I use not beside the business one. But Matt underscore stack, like that. I'm not trying to create like a new thing here. Like there's, there's a ton of great organizations out there. Like ultimately, what I want to do is have a way when guys read it to where they can get plugged into an awesome community, like work with churches in the area knowing which are which I consider a great church, which ones avoid, and then going to the ones where it guys can get a great community again, and get that back because it's a I think it starts it starts with a relationship with Jesus. But like, if to end this, there's a lot of behaviors and patterns that have to be worked out. I was massively addicted to porn, getting into my marriage. Well, that didn't go over so well with my wife at first. It shattered her and now I had to navigate this other world with another person by my side. So there's tons of things that guys struggle with alone. But I promise it's not struggle that you're dealing with alone because a lot of guys do it. And that's how we we battle it out together. So Matt underscore stack that can hit me up. And dude, KP you got a new guy, new friend out in Colorado Springs, bro. Yeah.

KP: 49:10

I really appreciate it, man. And listen to what he just said, Don't be embarrassed about your situation, whether it's something mental that you're going through. Or maybe it's like, like he just mentioned right now with the issue that you had with porn, like, Listen, if you're, if you're going through it, you're not going through it alone. There's folks out there like myself, there's folks out there like Matt, folks within the community that are more than willing to talk to you, but then also reference you into the right direction to get you the expert help that you need. And that just to round things off, and I just want to mention this too. For all knuckleheads out there, like myself who hate to read books. This is only sixty six pages. This is only 66 pages long, right?

Matt Stack: 49:49

Oh, it's only 66. Dude my wife gives me so much crap all the time. Like you need to go, Vets don't like to read books, you need to go and do the audio book. I'm like, I know.

KP: 49:58

I mean, 66 pages. Guys, if you can't get through that. Yeah, if you can't get through that, then you got some real real world issues here. 66 pages is not all that much. It's definitely worth taking a look at it probably gets straight, concise to the point. So which is the kind of reading that I like to do, but just to round things off, Matt. And to finish off the podcast. Do you have any advice out there for folks within our military community?

Matt Stack: 50:24

That's a good question. Probably just a re summarization of kind of everything went through it. Say, the message that I would probably leave for a veteran is like how you feel is not tied to your personality and how you feel is not tied to you alone. Like, I think, guys, there's a combination of guys want to think about well, listen, you don't know what I've been through. And that's true. We don't, or you don't know we've what I've experienced. That's true. We don't. But the way you feel, I guarantee matches up. If you were to pull 100 vets in a room, and we talked about what we talked about on this show today. I would bet 90% of them would all would all be like, yeah, yeah. Like and so I would say, you've got to, like I get choked up , I would say you got you got to fight it out a little longer. Like, go another day. Like, because I promise like, one thing I've learned about God and my walk with God is that He is the greatest I guess Turner of things horrible into things that are beautiful. Like I've seen guys that I know who've done the worst things, and horrible things, and gets like God takes it and switches it around. And so much of us is like we think we don't want that. Like we want it we want to like shroud ourselves in the darkness. Telling you , man come to the light. Because the life that you want, the marriage you want, the family you want, the business you want, all those things like, you can have those things like, let's deal with this stuff. Let's go another day. Let's fight it out. Let's get the right community. And it's right there on the other side, man.

KP: 52:09

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely that it's a great conversation, Matt, I really appreciate you letting us in to what killing chaos is all about and letting us learn a little bit more about you as well. I really appreciate you giving us that chance. So thank you so much for the time. And I want to thank the audience as well. Thank you for listening to the morning formation podcast, another great episode tied up here with Matt stack, make sure you follow Him. If you want to check it out down on the show notes. I will put his Instagram down there as well as where you can find his book on Amazon and any other pertinent ways that you can contact Matt. But for now, as always, to my audience, I want you to stay tuned, stay focused, and stay motivated. Warriors fall out.